Michele 1 #1 August 5, 2006 Castro underwent surgery for intestinal bleeding on Monday; he ceded power of Cuba to his younger brother, Raul. Castro is just about 80 years old (August 13 is his bday), and his younger brother is 75 (I think - maybe a year or two off). There are unconfirmed reports that Castro had a tumor removed during the surgery, giving rise to lots of speculation (rumor based on rumor) that Castro is dying. The government of Cuba has stated that Castro is going to make a full recovery. There is doubt of that, however, in the general news. Perhaps it's wishful thinking to think that Castro will die soon (what a horrible thought, really). Perhaps it's just people wanting to be free of tyranny that gives these rumors legs. But I've been thinking...what will happen once Castro and his brother do indeed die? Raul is just as much of a communistic hardliner as is Castro - indeed two peas in a pod. What will occur to a populace who has wanted freedom for 47 years? What sort of government will be established? What sort of economic power will be developed (Cuba recently found a lot of oil - and has been in talks with Venezuela's Chavez; and interesting side note). Will the communist government dissolve? Will it remain in power, simply installing those leaders already in place in the government? Or will there be large scale changes? Condi Rice has echoed the US administration's position: "We in the United States are closely watching the events in Cuba," she said. "Much is changing there, yet one thing remains constant — America's commitment to supporting a future of freedom for Cuba, a future that will be defined by you, the Cuban people. "The United States respects your aspirations as sovereign citizens. And we will stand with you to secure your rights — to speak as you choose, to think as you please, to worship as you wish, and to choose your leaders, freely and fairly, in democratic elections." Interesting position to take...and one which I support. But how far will this go? Will there be mass exodus once Castro dies to Florida and the Gulf Coast? Will there be war in the streets of Cuba? Will there be a cuban version of rebellion? And how hard will Raul, who is defense minister, go to maintain the communist government in the wake of his brother's death? And what will the response be from other South American countries (i.e Venezuela)? Just some questions for this Saturday morning. I wonder what everyone thinks on this. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #2 August 5, 2006 Hi Michele, I'm afraid that my money is on Cuba following the China Model rather than the Russia / East-European model. While I wouldn't give Raul Castro more than a few years in power (to be followed by their Foreign Minister Ruiz after a power struggle with Economy Minister Garcia), I don't see Cuba becoming a multi-party democracy. Nor do I see The Cuban Communist Party losing power. What I would expect to see after Raul Castro's brief period of power is a change in The Cuban Economy, with a limited free enterprise being allowed & even encouraged, but rest assured that, like China, this will remain under the very firm control of government & any foreign investment will remain strictly limited to partnerships between foreign investors and the Cuban Government itself. As I've said elsewhere, there remains too much bad history between America & Cuba for things to change significantly. In the meantime, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/5236164.stm makes some interesting reading. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #3 August 5, 2006 I will admit that their is a lot of wishful thinking (by Cubans or Cuban decsencants living in Cuba, or abroad) that the son of a bitch is dead or dying a painful death. But this is not by any means a bad thing. Do you not think that many Jews were feeling the same way about Hitler in his last days? To respond that its completely different, is equivalent to saying you don't really know Cubans or life as its been for the vast majority Cubans who do not want to live in the shit hole that Castro created. See other picture and check out link http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/01/AR2006080101405.html I welcome people like Michelle who wish to learn about Cuban life, hate communists like Charles Wrangel, who outright lie to defend communists, and am frustrated with the people who foolishly look to news sources like the BBC or CNN, to get an understanding or the current situation there. , Thinking that Raul would last in power for years is actually quite funny. It too shows a lack of general knowledge about what has been happening in Cuba. Raul Castro is a alcoholic homosexual who is generally not liked even by fellow communists. If you knew how many assasination attempts have been made on Fidel Castro for the past 47 years, you would realize that an alcoholic who needs to sleep with different men constantly, will be killed easily. Here is a little exerp from a link. The attacks, the bombings, the assassination attempts went on. Over 600 plans or attempts on Fidel Castro's life alone are known to authorities -- from exploding cigars, to his wet suit lined with poison, to a pistol hidden in a camera. Two of the most recent have been the snipers arrested before attempting to kill the president on Venezuela's Margarita Island in 1997, and the bombing plot in Panama City in 1999 which netted Luis Posada Carriles, who awaits trial in a Panamanian jail. Things got to the point where the US allowed ships at sea to openly shell residential districts in Havana, as on August 24, 1962. Here is a picture displaying what the Cuban comunity thinks about Raul Castro attached to this posting. Actually at this point, I am strongly starting to believe he is either already dead or dying and my only regret is that I am not in Miami celebrating with like minded people.If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #4 August 5, 2006 A little cherry picking... QuotePerhaps it's wishful thinking to think that Castro will die soon (what a horrible thought, really). Perhaps it's just people wanting to be free of tyranny that gives these rumors legs... ... What will occur to a populace who has wanted freedom for 47 years?... You assume a lot here. It just might be so that the majority of the Cuban population wants Castro as their leader. It is not a given that they are "wanting to be free of tyranny" or that they have "wanted freedom for 47 years". I know that the Cubans in Miami would have you think this but is it really true?HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #5 August 5, 2006 QuoteRaul Castro is a alcoholic homosexual who is generally not liked even by fellow communists. He's a homosexual? Well shit. That proves he's evil right there. But wait a second. Isn't "alcoholic homosexual" redundant? Aren't all those fags lushes? First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #6 August 5, 2006 QuoteA little cherry picking... QuotePerhaps it's wishful thinking to think that Castro will die soon (what a horrible thought, really). Perhaps it's just people wanting to be free of tyranny that gives these rumors legs... ... What will occur to a populace who has wanted freedom for 47 years?... You assume a lot here. It just might be so that the majority of the Cuban population wants Castro as their leader. It is not a given that they are "wanting to be free of tyranny" or that they have "wanted freedom for 47 years". I know that the Cubans in Miami would have you think this but is it really true? When I read posts like this, I wonder if people could really believe what they are stating. My parents left Cuba in 1962 to escape Castro, my grand parents in 66, I know tons of Cubans who came in the 70's my brother in law came in 79, aunt in 81, freind and coe-worker in 87, and I and my family and freinds are still in direct contact with family and freinds still in Cuba. Do you have any idea how many people are continuing to die in attempts to escape that place? It would seem that you don't when you make ignorant statements like "Oh well GEE I don't know, maybe they are all happy to be there" ,If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #7 August 5, 2006 QuoteQuoteRaul Castro is a alcoholic homosexual who is generally not liked even by fellow communists. He's a homosexual? Well shit. That proves he's evil right there. But wait a second. Isn't "alcoholic homosexual" redundant? Aren't all those fags lushes? You may find a double edged sword there. In efforts to conceal his sexuality early on he slaughtered many of your kind. ,If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #8 August 5, 2006 QuoteA little cherry picking... QuotePerhaps it's wishful thinking to think that Castro will die soon (what a horrible thought, really). Perhaps it's just people wanting to be free of tyranny that gives these rumors legs... ... What will occur to a populace who has wanted freedom for 47 years?... You assume a lot here. It just might be so that the majority of the Cuban population wants Castro as their leader. It is not a given that they are "wanting to be free of tyranny" or that they have "wanted freedom for 47 years". I know that the Cubans in Miami would have you think this but is it really true? Yes I agree w/ that. Now would be the perfect time for the U.S. to invade. We could LIBERATE the people, kill Castro, get some oil, stick a thorn in Chavezs' ass> A Win-Win situation. Hell we might even find some WMDI hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #9 August 5, 2006 QuoteYou may find a double edged sword there. In efforts to conceal his sexuality early on he slaughtered many of your kind. , It's only a "double edged sword" if you associate homosexuality with murderousness. I don't. Do you? First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #10 August 5, 2006 I am not saying one way or the other. I am just tired of seeing people use words like "tyranny" as if they were a given truth without backing them up. I don't know what it is like in Cuba. I have never been there. I realize that many people have tried to escape Cuba over the years, but is that because of political persecution or is it because there is money to be made on the main land?HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #11 August 5, 2006 QuoteQuoteA little cherry picking... QuotePerhaps it's wishful thinking to think that Castro will die soon (what a horrible thought, really). Perhaps it's just people wanting to be free of tyranny that gives these rumors legs... ... What will occur to a populace who has wanted freedom for 47 years?... You assume a lot here. It just might be so that the majority of the Cuban population wants Castro as their leader. It is not a given that they are "wanting to be free of tyranny" or that they have "wanted freedom for 47 years". I know that the Cubans in Miami would have you think this but is it really true? Yes I agree w/ that. Now would be the perfect time for the U.S. to invade. We could LIBERATE the people, kill Castro, get some oil, stick a thorn in Chavezs' ass> A Win-Win situation. Hell we might even find some WMD Sounds good to me but its still a little different. I would suggest you look up and learn about the Platt Amendment but hell, I will just put it on this post and make it easier. The Platt Amendment, 1903 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Article I. The Government of Cuba shall never enter into any treaty or other compact with any foreign power or powers which will impair or tend to impair the independence of Cuba, nor in any manner authorize or permit any foreign power or powers to obtain by colonization or for military or naval purposes, or otherwise, lodgment in or control over any portion of said island. Article II. The Government of Cuba shall not assume or contract any public debt to pay the interest upon which, and to make reasonable sinking-fund provision for the ultimate discharge of which, the ordinary revenues of the Island of Cuba, after defraying the current expenses of the Government, shall be inadequate. Article III. The Government of Cuba consents that the United States may exercise the right to intervene for the preservation of Cuban independence, the maintenance of a government adequate for the protection of life, property, and individual liberty, and for discharging the obligations with respect to Cuba imposed by the Treaty of Paris on the United States, now to be assumed and undertaken by the Government of Cuba. . . . Article V. The Government of Cuba will execute, and, as far as necessary, extend the plans already devised, or other plans to be mutually agreed upon, for the sanitation of the cities of the island, to the end that a recurrence of epidemic and infectious diseases may be prevented, thereby assuring protection to the people and commerce of Cuba, as well as to the commerce of the Southern ports of the United States and the people residing therein.... Article VII. To enable the United States to maintain the independence of Cuba, and to protect the people thereof, as well as for its own defense, the Government of Cuba will sell or lease to the United States lands necessary for coaling or naval stations, at certain specified points, to be agreed upon with the ]?resident of the United States. ------------------------------------------- To help you understand, article 7 states the U.S. has ever right, to go in there and stabilize the situation as soon as the uprising starts when the general population knows Castro is dead. However, there is so much internal dissent that, I wouldn't doubt if half of the current Cuban army took out the real communists who wanted to keep the status quo, once the fear of Castro's reprisal was gone. I can then see the U.S. doing the same thing they did in 1898, come in after the Cubans won and try to take credit in hopes to control the Island. But that might not be such a bad thing. If the U.S. would have been in control all along Castro's army would have never succeeded. ,If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #12 August 5, 2006 QuoteQuoteYou may find a double edged sword there. In efforts to conceal his sexuality early on he slaughtered many of your kind. , It's only a "double edged sword" if you associate homosexuality with murderousness. I don't. Do you? I don't, Fidel was straight as an arrow and they were/are both vicious murders, and I like most Cubans/Cuban-Americans would like for both of them to die an extremely painful death. ,If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #13 August 5, 2006 QuoteYou assume a lot here. It just might be so that the majority of the Cuban population wants Castro as their leader. It is not a given that they are "wanting to be free of tyranny" or that they have "wanted freedom for 47 years". I know that the Cubans in Miami would have you think this but is it really true? Of course I do. I've not lived there, and only have had contact with cubans who have either fled themselves or are children of those who fled. Is that one sided? Sure. But unless I can get to Cuba, and see for myself, my experience is all I can go on. Well, that and research. Which I've done. And have come to the conclusion that most people are waiting with baited breath for the Castro administration to end, so that they can move forward in their country, for their country, and with the economic potential that the country has. It's a little akin to me saying that the East Germans were happy to see the wall fall. Was I there? No...but I'd met some people from the former Soviet Bloc, and they were very happy when the wall came down. Does that mean everyone was? No, but history shows that the majority of them were. So from what I can see, yes, most cubans do want to see a change in administration. Into what I don't know, but definitely not the closed, vicious, deprivational society they live in now. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #14 August 5, 2006 QuoteIt's only a "double edged sword" if you associate homosexuality with murderousness. I don't. Do you? Nope. But Narcimund, this isn't the place to go on a homosexuality rampage. Please start a new thread, if you feel the need, but keep this one to the topic. If Raul Castro has killed boys and men because he was trying to hide his sexual identity, then he is a murderer. Not because he is a homosexual (if that's the truth), but because he killed, plain and simple. Try not to twist others' words to suit your own agenda, all right? It's getting old. I like you. But you really have to learn to debate the issue and not the player. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #15 August 5, 2006 QuoteI am not saying one way or the other. I am just tired of seeing people use words like "tyranny" as if they were a given truth without backing them up. I don't know what it is like in Cuba. I have never been there. I realize that many people have tried to escape Cuba over the years, but is that because of political persecution or is it because there is money to be made on the main land? Money to be made in the mainland. Actually Cuban-Americans are typically quite successful in the U.S. But to think that they escaped here for financial interests, is frankly absurd. Most Cubans have arrived with nothing and built their way up. If that were the case the 1500 Cuban-Americans would not have trained with the CIA to go back and save their freinds and family in Cuba from that dictatorship. They would just be rejoicing this this "new found wealth" that they found here in the U.S. ============================== but is that because of political persecution -------------------------------------------- I know personally many ex-political prisoners from Cuba. You apparently don't understand what its like for a husband and wife to be afraid of speaking out against Castro in their own home because they might be afraid that they son or daughter might have bought into the communist bull shit. You apparently don't have family or freinds who found themselves in such a situation and had Castro's thugs walk into their house, pull them outside and shoot them dead in the middle of the street. Rest assure this has been happening for the past 47 years. Its just not a matter of opinion. It IS plain and clear, BLACK and WHITE, its wrong. To state otherwise is to either be ignorant or just plain careless of the situation. ,If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #16 August 5, 2006 QuoteIt's a little akin to me saying that the East Germans were happy to see the wall fall. Was I there? No...but I'd met some people from the former Soviet Bloc, and they were very happy when the wall came down. Does that mean everyone was? No, but history shows that the majority of them were. And today many of them say that they want the DDR back. I don't think that is really true, but it does show that it wasn't all evil. People actually lived there. Does Cuba conform with our standards of political freedom? No. Would I want to live there? No. Are most people able to have a good life? Maybe. The standard of education as well as the average life-expectancy are both high (at least according to wikipedia)HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #17 August 5, 2006 QuoteMoney to be made in the mainland. Well, there was a surge of refugees when the economic aid from the USSR stopped... QuoteActually Cuban-Americans are typically quite successful in the U.S. But to think that they escaped here for financial interests, is frankly absurd. You might consider it insulting but absurd it is not. If my ignorance is insulting you then I do apologize. QuoteI know personally... ex-political prisoners ... afraid of speaking out ... family or freinds ... Castro's thugs ... shoot them dead... Rest assure this has been happening for the past 47 years. What you are telling me here is disturbing and all new to me. I hope you do not take offence by me being cautious about taking your word on this.HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #18 August 5, 2006 Are most people able to have a good life? Maybe. -------------------------------------------------- No they are not. The only people living well are involved in government. This is a fact. Not bull shit I have read on the BBC. But actual information from people who have recently escaped or have actually gone back in through a third country to visit a dying family member. This is the only general exception most Cuban-Americans make for people letting their American dollars go there. I have pictures of my grandparents home town in Cuba in 1940 and then in 2000. I can guarantee the standard of living was higher in 1940. ,If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #19 August 5, 2006 In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I know personally... ex-political prisoners ... afraid of speaking out ... family or freinds ... Castro's thugs ... shoot them dead... Rest assure this has been happening for the past 47 years. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What you are telling me here is disturbing and all new to me. I hope you do not take offence by me being cautious about taking your word on this. --- Is that all you've got?!? --------------------------------- I guess being in Denmark so far away and not knowing any Cubans is probably why, what I take as a given, you may doubt. It still does blow my mind that after all these years there are people who don't understand what has been happening in Cuba. I will search to find some links in a minute here. ,If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #20 August 5, 2006 Quote...I can guarantee the standard of living was higher in 1940. The US has a slightly higher infant mortality rate than Cuba. On the other hand this is also true for the life-expectancy.HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #21 August 5, 2006 here is a start http://www.therealcuba.com/page5.htm ,If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #22 August 5, 2006 this here link is for the Jack-asses who think its a "cool fashion statement" to wear Che t-shirts. http://www.therealcuba.com/MurderedbyChe.htm Editted to ad there is a link there to an audio/video clip from that vicious murder stating, "We have killed the resistance by firing squad and we will continue with the firing squads." Unfortunately for most of you, its in Spanish, so you won't understand it. ,If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #23 August 5, 2006 A lot of accusations and very little in the way of documentation. I realize that by now you probably feel like you are trying to convince me that the sky is blue... I tried looking at Amnesy International's homepage but it didn't say anything about executions. Apparently Cuba hardly ever carries out any.HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #24 August 5, 2006 QuoteA lot of accusations and very little in the way of documentation. I realize that by now you probably feel like you are trying to convince me that the sky is blue... I tried looking at Amnesy International's homepage but it didn't say anything about executions. Apparently Cuba hardly ever carries out any. Yeah maybe those pictures are all fake. And all those crosses in Tamiami Park, each representing a name for a Cuban that was killed fighting Castro's regime could just be the work of 100's of thousands of Cuban-Americans with over-active imaginations. ,If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #25 August 5, 2006 QuoteTry not to twist others' words to suit your own agenda, all right? It's getting old. I like you. But you really have to learn to debate the issue and not the player. You're fucking kidding me, right? * Who brought up homosexuality? * Who accused this man of murdering BECAUSE of his homosexuality? * Who posted a photoshopped picture showing this man as a stereotypical pansy? And _I'm_ the one turning this into something? I suppose I'm somehow ineligible to dispute the association between murder and homosexuality already in the thread, right? First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites